Future

SugarDaddy, SugarMommy?

This is what Gardner said in the November 2008 Locus Interview, and it makes me just insane with frustration:

“I was talking to Ellen Datlow the other day and telling her it's kind of absurd that the two best editors in the short fiction business are out of work. I said, 'We should really start a web magazine where you do the horror and fantasy and I do the science fiction.' Now we just need somebody with deep pockets to fund it. If somebody approached us, there's no doubt we would do it.

Comments

I have to admit, I'm not sure what you're frustrated about exactly -- that there is no one with deep pockets, or that someone is silly enough to believe that there would be anyone out there willing to pay a living wage to people for running a webzine.

I mean, yeah, sci fi did it for a while, but stopped long after it was clear there was no profit in it.
Well, no profit and nothing but whining from the Cat Piss Men about how it wasn't their idea of a perfect magazine. Take my word for it from working for the Skiffy Channel magazine a few years back: after about the first three dozen snotty and arrogant letters demanding changes that are not only contradictory but flat-out impossible, with the threat that some barely mobile dork is going to take his business elsewhere if those changes aren't made immediately, you start to understand why Skiffy management keeps giving the finger to its viewers and its online readership.
I wish the state of the industry was indeed such that two excellent editors were employed!

I do appreciate what Gardner says in his interview about the differences between sf and fantasy. It's a line few people care about these days, but one that has always seemed important to me.
I thought, though, that Gardner chose to leave Asimov's voluntarily, at least in part because he'd had a good long run and didn't want to burn out on it. Is that not the case? If it is, I'm not sure it's accurate to portray him as "out of work" in the same sense as Sci Fiction closing down.
I believe he did leave voluntarily, yes.

However, it seems like he's ready to go back to more steady employment, if the opportunity arises.
Good luck on that. When Scott Edelman quit editing SCI FI when Sovereign Media shut down Science Fiction Age, the highest compliment the SCI FI Channel could pay him was to hire him back when it took the magazine license away from Sovereign and started publishing it directly. I think Mr. Dozois discovered what Mark Altman discovered when Larry Flynt sold Sci-Fi Universe out from under him 11 years ago: enjoy the run while it lasts, because precious few publishers are going to be crazy enough to give most editors a second run. (Oh, Mr. Altman went on to publish Cinefantastique after Frederick S. Clarke died, but you may notice that nobody's seen an issue of CFQ for a few years, and it's officially in that "dead in all but name" status of being "on hiatus".)
I have only two words to describe how this worked out the last time such a program existed: "Galaxy Online". The problem here is that while it'd be great if someone came along and subsidized a genre magazine of this sort, the reality is that you're always dependent upon those handouts unless there's some possibility of it making money to defray its costs. Dozois's whining (and let's face it, it's whining from a wanker who thinks he's a lot more important to the flow of the universe than he really is) is right up there with the twits who figure that Twentieth Century Fox should subsidize another Serenity movie: it presumes that publishing, like moviemaking, is a holy calling that should attract all sorts of financiers with more money than brains. I've seen what happens when people try to use that argument, and it doesn't turn out all that well.

I know: I'd love to see Ellen Datlow fully employed for a magazine that appreciated her talent, but the problem here is that there's no market for literary science fiction magazines any more. If there was, then Conde Nast and Time Warner would be punching each other in the back of the head to be the first to offer one. One of the first things that Hasbro did when it bought Wizards of the Coast was to shut down the WoC-published Amazing Stories, and you might remember that abortive revival five years ago. Sovereign Media shut down Science Fiction Age nearly nine years ago, when it was still barely profitable but before it became unprofitable. Tomorrow SF was a joke from the beginning, and Algis Budrys discovered exactly how many people were actually reading each issue when he tried to charge for online subscriptions. And then there's OMNI, which was a sugar daddy publication: Bob Guccione could afford to keep it going while Penthouse was making lots of money, but Bob decided to cut off the gravy train just before online porn pretty much killed his entire magazine empire.

Of course, a lot of this problem lies with the people who want to see more genre magazines. Dozois wants to be an editor again now that he's discovered the number of people who put up with him solely because they wanted to get published in Asimov's vastly exceeds the number of people who don't want to set him on fire on sight. In a way, he and a lot of other editors helped catalyze the current situation with genre magazines, where the only people bothering to buy them are those wanting to submit to the slush pile. (Even then, if the Cat Piss Men can get free copies or snag the submission address from the Web site, there's no reason to buy a copy at all.) Ten years ago, I kept pointing out that any of the magazines that wanted to stay alive were going to have to find new readers in a more aggressive fashion than sending out editors to conventions, and we can see exactly how many people bothered to listen to me.

At this point, I'm figuring that the genre magazine has had a good run, and now it's time to let it die with dignity and honor. Oh, sure, you'll always have some never-were like Gabe Chouinard who'll continue to announce new print and online venues that amazingly fall apart after the first issue. You'll always see some egomaniac who assumes that it's still 1988 and all you need is a stolen copy of Adobe GoLive and enough money to print one issue to start a magazine empire. The simple fact is that, outside of the idjits who still obsessively read Locus and Writer's Digest and Publisher's Weekly, nobody has any reason to care about the fate of the science fiction magazine, and they sure as hell aren't being given a reason. Well, they're being given the same reasons as they're being given reasons by Cat Piss Men as to why we need manned planetary exploration, and they're just as unconvincing and entitlement-driven. Until that changes, each magazine that ceases publication is just another death twitch on the periodical corpse.
Dude, I'm not saying there isn't something in what you say--and I usually enjoy your comments and find them thought-provoking--but could you please not call Mr. Dozois a whiner or a wanker on my blog? Thank you.
Okay. I think I was just channelling the Old Me, back from when I'd had several less-than-complimentary experiences with him. And maybe "whining" was a touch harsh: "passively-aggressively begging" is a bit more appropriate.

(The problem here isn't that he and Ellen couldn't make it work, but I am desperately sick and tired of people making announcements of this sort, where "I could do all sorts of wonderful things if only I could find someone to finance them" is used in lieu of "I spent the last three weeks working on a business plan, and God help us all, it'll make a profit inside of a year." Ironically, because I'm no longer involved in it, I'm more scared for the future of the publishing industry right now than I ever have been. Considering the established publishers who are probably going to be stomped when, and not if, Borders dies this next year, any plans for new publishing projects over the next five years are going to require real business plans that can withstand a lot of investigation and derisory laughter. Putting out a call for a sugar daddy to finance a project of this sort, especially when the financial people who were previously in the best place to do so are now facing layoffs or bankruptcy, is barely a step above a group of kids announcing "Let's put on a show!" I really don't want to be a cynic, and I really hope that I'm proven wrong, but Dozois's whole suggestion is something that just simply isn't going to find financing without the words "trust fund", "lottery ticket," or "money laundering" these days, and the folks with access to all three can find venues with better returns in which to invest their wealth.)

Well, Gardner's been pretty decent to me in my zygote career, so I have to stick up for him.

And, uh--

Let's put on a show! ;D

But he probably knows it isn't going to find financing. He may've just been wishing out loud, just as I was.
Fair enough. You know that I'd willingly take a bullet for Scott Edelman and Ellen Datlow for the same reasons.

Now, as far as putting on a show, what I want to know now is how all of the Chinese science fiction magazines are getting their funding. I'm hoping, but I don't have enough information to tell for sure, that they're financed by subscriptions due to the current Chinese fascination with space exploration. If I figured that anyone might actually give a damn, and any efforts to do so weren't choked out by some dweeb at SFWA who didn't get enough attention as a child, I'd see about finding out how these magazines are promoted to the general public and grafting some of those ideas on to American genre magazines. The fire and the enthusiasm are there, so now it's a matter of seeing if that fire can be used here, or if it's too late.
In all seriousness, I would LOVE to hear of some of these aggressive ways of getting readers that you speak of. One of things I've been planning to do for Fantasy is expand our reader base and inch it toward those more mainstream folks who seem to be more interested in tv and movies than literature. But other than sending editors to conventions (and creating fine content) what other things should one do?
*all ears*
If I were going to start a new webzine, which I'm not, or if I were put in charge of rounding up new readers, which I'm definitely not :-), I might try pushing the multimedia, going for themed issues (Inauguration Week, anyone?), commissioning cross-zine serials (someone suggested this to [info]cristalia at Readercon - start a story on Strange Horizons, continue it on Fantasy, take it over to Clarkesworld, etc), offering online workshops/chats, and sponsoring contests at at the university and high school levels. Not that I have any idea if it would work. Easy for me to say, harder for other people to do.
You make a great point about the contests, but if you haven't hooked new readers at the university level by the time they start school, it's too late. I'd recommend going for the junior high/middle school contingent first, especially considering that this is the age when it's suddenly uncool to read for pleasure. The Harry Potter books blew that out of the water, and continuing to shell the hulk may be extremely profitable for all.
I thought about the junior high/middle high contingent, but not with a web address that has darkfantasy in it, and not if there's adult content around. Maybe a spinoff site . . .
There you go. I'm old enough to remember when Warner Books and Del Rey used to publish kid-friendly versions of various novels, with the language and sex removed. (And let me tell you, a kid-friendly version of the Alan Dean Foster novelization of Alien was something to see. Every last "hell" and "damn" taken out, but the chestburster scene was intact.)
i dunno, dark fantasy doesn't necessarily mean non-kid-friendly. well, maybe not friendly to middle grade kids, but high school kids should be fine.
I think dark fantasy can be kid-friendly, but working at a high school in the Bible Belt? Made me wary of promoting anything that can be misconstrued by students or parents.
cross-zine serial sounds downright evil, but awesomely interesting nonetheless. I'd definitely consider such a thing for GUD.

Reaching out to university... really need to do that, ground-up. It's on my list...

you SURE you don't want to be in charge of rounding up new readers for, say, a coalition of magazines? ;)
you SURE you don't want to be in charge of rounding up new readers for, say, a coalition of magazines? ;)

I'm sure. :-) At least for right now.

You know what would be cool, though? Cross-promoting content the way foxnews or cnn news or others do on their sites - "If you liked this story, you might also like (x), (y) and (z). At the end of your story in Strange Horizons, SH could list 3 stories like it. At the end of a story in Fantasy, they could list 3 like it. Get people to stay, not click off the site.
Yes, that would be very cool. Difficult for GUD without giving the fiction away online, but very cool. I bet it wouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer something like that from blogger onto strange horizons, if the SH info is in a database (more annoying if it's not).

Maybe even toss on a learning algorithm: did you like this story? yes/no -- don't have to show it to anyone, because that sort of thing can turn very negative, but just to better tune connections.

That said, as an author and a publisher, I kind of selfishly like that the place to go after reading my piece on SH is my own weblink--generally GUD; I've noticed at least one direct sale from that. ;)

Keep them ideas coming! This is fun :D
The first and foremost thing to ask is "What has anyone been doing to attract younger readers?" In my case, I didn't even see a copy of Analog until I was 17. I got my genre addiction thanks to collections in school libraries and the annual subscription to OMNI in the public library and the airport newsstand. (My father traveled a lot in the early Eighties, and I could usually buy and sneak home a copy of OMNI if he didn't find out.) Considering that public and school libraries are already so strapped due to budget cuts, why not try contests that offer free two-year subscriptions to middle school and high school libraries where the librarians and the students demonstrate that the magazines will be read?

(For the record, I suggested this in my old column in Tangent nearly 11 years ago, along with a drastic review of small press distribution issues. This was when Fine Print was first crumbling, and things haven't gotten any better with newsstand distribution since then.)
It's too bad there's not a digest-sized mag for kids of middle school age. I remember my formative years were spent with Cricket, which was an all-around top magazine, and bent the twig in no uncertain way.
There was: Disney Adventures ran for years, with a lot of original content, and most of that content went back to the creators instead of to Disney. (I bought a subscription for my niece for years, mostly because Evan Dorkin and Sarah Dyer were writing Kid Blastoff for it back in '94.) Unfortunately, Disney shut it down two years back because it just couldn't compete: its main venue was in supermarket checkout stands, and the costs of that space just got to be prohibitive.
And yet Archie & his gang persist....
Wrapping up college, I worked at a secondhand bookstore and comic shop.

We sold the helloutta Archie comics.

Ahhhhh, the halcyon days of the late 90's . . .
uggggh. death by Archie. Yes.

I do sometimes wish GUD was more kid-friendly (I think it's great, 12+, but it does have, erm, adult situations, adult language, etc, etc, which, while it may be good for folks of that age range, isn't generally the sort of thing a school would sanction...)


well, as my magazine is an online one, it's harder to get it noticed by librarians, but perhaps easier to get it noticed by the younger set. Though I'm not entirely sure high schoolers would be into what we publish. But I don't know what high schoolers want in general, so you can't go by me.

A contest seems like a good idea, though, thanks!
how about that cross-zine serial thing? :)
What would your requirements be?
Well, it would have to be amazing, of course. ;) Beyond that, I'd lean towards something episodic more than just a serialized novel/novella--then again, it could be really fun to just have everyone print five pages of something that wasn't standalone in the slightest: broken in the middle of a sentence at each end.

I probably wouldn't want something that was broken up over more than 5 or 6 sources--I'd want someone to be able to reasonably collect those sources without having to obsess. I might even consider making that slice of GUD "free" to make it easier for folks coming from other sites/sources to collect.

Loose thoughts...
Not only is he one of the two best editors, he's humble too!

(Anonymous)

If you want to draw Middle Schoolers (per the Asimov's comment) or anyone else for that matter, it helps if you publish content that interests them. Now, this may sound snarky but the real fact is that you'd be hard pressed to get many students to read ANYTHING.

Forex, where I teach, it is a daily battle to get them to read the textbooks and not just in my class but in the other classes as well. My peers report endless frustration with students who are not doing the assigned reading for discussions. And I know they are not reading the text in my class because their test performance shows as much.

The problem, in part, is apathy. It isn't just a genre problem. It is a problem period.

The other part of the problem, and I've made this point elsewhere, is that I frequently hand samples of what is published in the mags and webzines to people who are nominally interested in science fiction. Granted, they are video game players and media SF readers.

Result? They put it down after about a page and say, "Boring."

No one on the short story side of the house likes to hear that but it is a fact as well. Most of the short story consumers tend to be, well, other writers and writer aspirants.

Until you fix that problem, decline is going to be the headline of this story.

S. F. Murphy
On the Outer Marches
Blue-Ey'd Hag

July 2009

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