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The Blue Ey'd Hag
This is going to be a long and rambling post, so hold on.

I met [info]baronalejandro at Lilies War and we hit it off reasonably well. As most of us do, we connected later on LJ. On one particular post about fighting over at my SCA blog ([info]baronnemelisend if you wanna see), he replied something to the effect of "If I can help, let me know."

One of the benefits of reaching my age is that you don't have to be coy. If someone offers help, pride and modesty are seen only as hindrances, not virtues.

He said words to the effect of "We'll have you knocking out huscarls in three months and breaking the arms of the Chivalry in six." Not only did he encourage my goals, he capped them. When I said "Gee, I can't do that," he said "Yes, you can." From then on he refused to hear me when I said can't. He got me all excited about possibilites, and yes, I drank the Kool-Aid.

He's been incredibly helpful in working out a routine for me, motivating me, and not taking my bullshit. What, I can hear some of you saying, couldn't you do this on your own?

Well, no.

I'm one of those people who, apparently, need a trainer. I've been lifting off and on (mostly off) since I was in my 20's, but I've been very spotty about it. It wasn't until I hit my late 20's that I realized that I could do anything I wanted to do and that my previous lack of sports experience, skill, or interest was no real bar. Yeah, so I had that knowledge and did nothing with it, except go have two kids via vaginal delivery, one without an epidural.

And then eventually I found the weights again, with help from Krista's stumptuous website. Her Butch Up! rant was especially helpful.

Excuse #1: I need to wait until I lose another 20 lbs., get married, resolve my mother issues, make some more money, blah blah blah, insert future goal here.

No you don’t. You need to start RIGHT NOW, today, this very minute. What is that in your hand? A cookie? Either eat it and own up to it like a big girl, or throw it out. What is that sitting next to you? A phone? Pick it up and call your local gym, and make an appointment to see their stuff. I see a pen sitting on your desk next to a calendar. You will use this pen right now to write down three days on the calendar that you will spend 30-60 minutes doing something physical. For most of you there are feet at the end of your legs. Stand up and do something with them to get them moving. Think of what you can do right now, today, and this week to take charge. Then do it.
 
So I was doing weights occasionally, learning more, but mostly wishing and sitting around on my ass. Until now. Now, I'm scurrying around doing weights regularly, and--holy God--actually training to enter a 5K race this November. If someone had said to me at the beginning of the year that I'd be running in such a thing, I'd've laughed myself right out of my computer chair.

I need someone to be accountable to. Someone who knows just how difficult the goals ahead of me are, who knows that I'm not doing this only to be healthy, or only to fight, or only to (Inshallah) get smokin' hot.

Not to mention someone who isn't scared of women lifting weights.

Aha, now we get to it.

Reading through [info]orbitalmechanic's iron adventures has reminded me all over again of the freaky prejudice against women lifting heavy.  I keep thinking it's a thing of the past, or only among certain folks (you know: They).

I'm reminded of all the times I've posted a picture of a woman bodybuilder only to have it met with tsking and headshaking and wow, she looks gross.  She looks like a guy.  She doesn't look feminine.  Etc., etc., ad nauseum.  Not to mention, You want to look like that?  Why?

Why. 

Here's Lenda Murray.



Flipping amazing.  Lenda Murray has won Ms. Olympia 8 times.  The last time was in 2003, when she was 41 years old.  She took second the next year, when she was 42.

This is Dina Al-Sabah.



Dinah Al-Sabah has ovarian fortitude the likes of which I can't even comprehend.  She's a figure competitor, which is more accepted than a bodybuilder, but still.  You can't tell me she didn't build that body.

Valentina Chepiga


Andrulla Blanchette


How could I not want to look like these women?

Of course, odds are that I won't.  Not because any lack of ability, etc., on my part, but these women have been pros--they have the time, money, and--sorry--steroids with which to pursue bodybuilding at that level.  (With perhaps the exception of Dina, but she's a figure competitor and not looking for what steroids can give her.)

The thing is, though, these women are decried for looking like men.  Well, men don't look like this either.  This looks like human muscle, developed past the norm of what we're used to seeing everyday.

Muscle knows no gender.

And yet even though there are competitions for bodybuilding women, and organizations, there is still enormous pressure on these women to focus on figure competition, or to make themselves seem more sexual for the competitions.  Breast implants.  High heels.  (High heels, of all things, which are antithetical to a fit body!) 

Perhaps the saddest and most absurd manifestation of this genderizing of bodybuilding is the incredible amount of near-pornographic websites bodybuilding women have to get up in order to make money.  For women, bodybuilding doesn't pay out like it does for men.  Shawn Ray and Arnold Schwarzenegger get book deals, endorsement deals, etc.  What do the women get?  Members only websites that promise sleazy photos taken in hotel rooms--or, worse yet, bookings for private wrestling sessions.   Forums and chat rooms that advertise which bodybuilder is available for a muscle worship session.

Even more mainstream avenues for women bodybuilders tend to depict these athletes in ultra-feminine, sexualized settings.  And why?  

It's the same old, same old.  It's not enough to celebrate the accomplishment itself.  The woman is deemed as being of value only if she's fuckable.  So it's not enough to have 17" biceps and weigh 140lbs.  Nope--to be valued, you gotta put on a thong and thigh highs and whatever other trappings are currently soft-wired into the perception of female sexual receptiveness.  

These are all very tricky waters to navigate. 

Remember, the act of picking up a barbell is one of the most subversive acts you as a woman can do. 

Make it matter.

Comments

( 38 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]evil_fionn wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2009 08:51 pm (UTC)
You know... interesting side note but related:
I don't have a problem with women and weights, but I saw a picture today of Madonna that just had me, well, grossed out.
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_03/MadonnaDM2606_468x737.jpg

Okay, truth is, I never found Madonna that appealing anyway (except maybe during the "Vogue" days, but I have a soft spot for period fashion).
I guess the difference is that the women you posted seem to have muscle and HEFT behind them... whereas, in my opinion, M. just looks dessicated. Stringy, even.
I think it's a matter of "What fits your body type best?"
Me, I don't know. Sometimes I think it would be cool, sometimes I think I'd look like a freak.
[info]tedeisenstein wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2009 09:27 pm (UTC)
The one quote I can remember from Guy Ritchie, her ex, was something he said about "Having sex with her was like [bleeping] tendons and gristle"....

As for the original post, How could I not want to look like these women?
You shouldn't look like them. You should look like yourself. Well-muscled, fit, in good shape - but like yourself. Why would anyone want to look like that, when they could be a buff versions of themselves?

...but, then, I've always been of the persuasion that people should look normal. Not maxed out on steroids and 10-hour days of lifting weights; nor maxed out on food! food! food!; nor in the throes of serious addiction. Just normal is beautiful enough. Life needs balance, and the most beautiful people are those who have that balance.
[info]noveldevice wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 12:41 am (UTC)
I think if she wants to look like these women, she should do it. :)
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 05:47 am (UTC)
See, that's what I'm talking about. Never mind that Madonna is a woman of incredible energy and business savvy. (Fan or not, I thik we can agree on this.) Nope, all her ex could say was that he didn't like her in the sack. Gah.
[info]noveldevice wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 06:12 am (UTC)
Didn't you know it's your job to look like what other people find sexy? (I'm smiling so I don't bang my head on the desk...)
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 02:15 pm (UTC)
Girrrrrrrllll....
[info]tedeisenstein wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 06:37 am (UTC)
That was not all he could say about her; it was the quote that stuck with me. I'm sure if you track down the stories, both of them will have a multitude of reasons for the failure of the marriage. (read: don't take one quote to be the whole argument.)

...and in any case, incompatible sex has been a primary reason for divorces for quite a while - "refusal to grant conjugal visits", "the marriage was never consummated", and the like. Sex is, after all, one of the primary reasons people would get married, because marriage was considered to be the only valid reason to have sex.

Yeah, she has energy and savvy. So does any graduate of a good business school or law school. But for a marriage to be successful, there has to be other reasons to hang out with one particular person, and good sex is one (I repeat, just one) of the more important ones. Why marry someone you wouldn't want to be intimate with?

[info]noveldevice wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 06:57 am (UTC)
I kind of think you're missing her point.
[info]orbitalmechanic wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 11:51 am (UTC)
In light of this post, and without meaning to be personal, I'm really struck that this *is* the quote that stuck with you--and that seemed relevant to Marguerite's post. Muscle sure ain't tendon and gristle. I wonder why it's so easy--again, not meaning to be personal, I think there's a lot going on here for a lot of people--to jump from bodybuilding to "ew, a woman who's too skinny is gross."
[info]tedeisenstein wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 01:24 pm (UTC)
I didn't take it personally; I'm finding this whole discussion to be thoroughly interesting and a bit fun, too. Lord knows even I need to have assumptions challenged....

As for the quote; I didn't take Mr. Ritchie's comment to imply his ex-wife was too skinny. I read it to mean that he thought she'd exercised so much that she was all muscle, all grit and sinew and tendon and hardness, that he found the experience thoroughly unpleasant. It wasn't "she's underweight", it was "she's overmuscled".

I also suspect that such a comment would apply to male bodybuilders as well as female. I pass by weightlifting magazines in the supermarkets, and glance at the bulging-muscle guys on the covers - and I think they're, well, grotesque. I would hate to have sex with them if I were a woman as much as I would hate to have sex with female equivalents.

For me, it's not the sex of the person that gets my dander up, it's the muscles - or, rather, how far the person has gone in developing defined, ripped, toned, musculature. Enough muscles to be healthy and good-looking is definitely good; too many muscles, in anyone, turns them into, for me, caricatures, of the "why don't they get a life?" type.

It's not a sexist thing. It's a too-much-of-a-good-thing, errr, thing. And it is certainly one of personal taste; a man who you think is just right may be over-muscled to me, and someone who is to my taste might need more exercise for you.
[info]orbitalmechanic wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 01:35 pm (UTC)
See, this is so interesting to me--what an amazing range of body types we can interpret as "overmuscled." That picture of Madonna doesn't look strong or athletic or muscled to me at all, it looks wasted, even ill, the opposite of those bodybuilders. I wonder if, culturally, part of this issue is that we expect men to lift weights in order to bulk up, and women to lift weights in order to slim down? So we all kind of measure of that, no matter how much we think it's dumb. I just can't imagine looking at the bodybuilders [info]silk_noir talks about and saying "tendon and gristle." Even though I don't personally like that look!

(I'm reminded of a class I taught once, where I asked my students to write definitions of the stereotypes of mothers and fathers--each one wrote a note at the top of the page saying "I don't agree with any of this!" but they all wrote exactly the same definitions. That's going to have an effect, however hard we try to turn away from it.)
[info]tedeisenstein wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 03:21 pm (UTC)
Not everyone gets traditionally overmuscled (if there is such a thing); a fair number will get that edged, chiseled, sharp look (as with the women in the photos in the original posting), and some get, well, the Madonna Look. Same cause, different results. Dunno what other words to describe the variations, though.

I am not entirely convinced that all women lift weights to slim down, nor men to bulk up. Back when I was still going to the gym, I was lifting weights to tone myself up - lose a bit of weight and several inches, get into better shape, and get a bit more muscular without adding bulk. I have heard anecdotal evidence that some women lift to add a bit of bulk...but, yeah, I could be easily persuaded that what you say could indeed be the Cultural Consensus, even though there's wide individual variation.

Madonna was tendon-and-gristle'd through too much body building. The photos [info]silk_noir posted weren't - but they were still overly, errr, body-built. In both cases, my own, personal tastes run towards "they've gone over the edge", but, then, I've always liked moderation in working out. And in pretty much everything else, in both sexes.
[info]jauncourt wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2009 09:41 pm (UTC)
in my opinion, M. just looks dessicated. Stringy, even.

This, so much. She is beginning to look like a stingy old chicken, and it's very sad, because she has it in her to look so much better.
(Deleted comment)
[info]evil_fionn wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 04:20 am (UTC)
I've always thought that hands show the first signs of aging.
[info]jauncourt wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 04:29 am (UTC)
That's what I think too - the strength isn't what looks off, it's the obvious anorexicness, which really shows in the hands.
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 05:48 am (UTC)
Honestly, I think Madonna is looking pretty good for her age, although yeah, maybe a sandwich or something.... The hands are what really disturb me.
[info]jauncourt wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2009 09:40 pm (UTC)
You know, I think we have a couple extra of the oorah moto USMC shirts Chris got when he was doing recruiting. They say:
"Pain is weakness leaving the body"

You want one? I wear them a lot when working out.

ETA: I have a great book called Women's Strength Training Anatomy and it's really inspiring. ETA again: we also have the both-sexes one.

Edited at 2009-07-29 10:10 pm (UTC)
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 05:50 am (UTC)
You are so sweet!

*grin* Actually, the best quote I've heard in that vein is "Pain is Taco Bell leaving the body." I'm waiting for that shirt!

In all honesty, there is a shirt I've got my eye on from Zazzle-- "Valkyrie in Training."
[info]baronalejandro wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2009 10:52 pm (UTC)
It's a huge kick in the pants to train you. I dig it the mostest. Every time I give you something, you come back for more. It fires me up, and I thank you for that. It's a privilege to work with you. I still mean it about the breaking arms thing. I'm still pondering the next phase in our plans. MUHAHAHA

Keep up the hard work. The results of this blood, sweat, and passion will be breathtaking to behold. And painful, for some.

Every day I become more & more a fan of [info]orbitalmechanic. I hope to emulate her in a lot of ways.

The female bodybuilder thing; it's not me - I don't appreciate the aesthetic, but I do appreciate the hard work & drive it takes to get there. Especially for those who choose not to cut corners and go the chemical route. BTW, it is possible to look like Blanchette without ever seen a pill or a needle; I know the training plan to do it. But it is effing HEROIC. You'd be working out (seriously) about 8 hours a day.

As far as the industry sexualizing them unduly, well, yeah. That's a bummer. Even as a target of that advertising, I would much prefer it if women who go that route have the choice on whether or not to market themselves in that fashion.
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 04:55 am (UTC)
I can't wait for the next phase! If I may gush, this is one of the most exciting things that's ever happened to me.

It's hard to believe it's only been a month.

8 hours a day, huh? Well, we may be talking about that later on....

[info]orbitalmechanic is an extremely cool lady. You should meet her. *grin*

I understand about not caring for the aesthetic of the female bodybuilder--one person whom you might be more in tune with is Kat Ricker, who is 7 shades of multi-awesome. I'd kinda like to be her when I grow up.

http://www.mightykat.net/fitness_bio.html

And yeah, it's all about choice, isn't it? I don't have a problem with sex work--as long as it is not a role that people have turned to because there were no other viable alternatives.

[info]baronalejandro wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 12:36 pm (UTC)
It's not necessarily the 'female bodybuilder' aesthetic I object to. It's 'you have too much muscle and you look like a mutant'. I don't like it when boys look like that either. There is such a thing as going too far.

The male-model aesthetic I aspire to is The Doryphoros.
[info]ericmarin wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2009 11:04 pm (UTC)
Go, Marguerite! (The build and strength you want are all that matter, not society's view of them.)
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 04:57 am (UTC)
Thanks, Eric!
[info]orbitalmechanic wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2009 11:06 pm (UTC)
Were you the one who mentioned the article complaining about how Dara Torres was excessively muscled? Blew up my brain.
[info]orbitalmechanic wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 01:08 am (UTC)
Oh DUDE Dina Al-Sabah has a B.S. in electrical engineering! Okay, now I'm swooning.
[info]baronalejandro wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 02:39 am (UTC)
Me too.
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 04:57 am (UTC)
Actually, that may've been Haddayr....
[info]welamom wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 12:13 am (UTC)
I don't like the way Madonna looks either. BUT I do want to look better myself. And Madonna is my age, SO I can't use the "I'm too old for this shit" defense, can I? So, I too, am going to the gym and working with a cute little trainer who has a mom with fibromyalgia, so she understands that I have to take the longer approach than most of her clients.

Having said that, I want you to be the amazingly successful, muscled and toned fighter wench that you wish to be. I want you to kick boy butt on a regular basis, and I want you to drag Raven along with you. Because, my darling girl, if that will make you happy, then I will happily blend your protein shakes for you....just to see that amazing smile of yours! And don't you dare ever, ever, ever feel that you have to put high heels on to feminize those muscles you will grow--I will break the heels on any pair of stripper shoes anyone suggests that you wear!

Now: Go get 'em!!
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 05:02 am (UTC)
Thank you!

Just ask [info]baronalejandro about women of a certain age. If anyone comes close to saying too old, etc., he'll smack you down with terrifying stories of little kick ass grandmas.

I'd like to drag Raven along with me. I'd like to drag every woman fighter in the Barony with me.
[info]noveldevice wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 12:44 am (UTC)
I'm not usually much for the bodybuilder look. That said, Lenda Murray? Yow. :)
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 05:20 am (UTC)
Lenda Murray, yeah. And Bill Dobbins (one of her photographers) is an ace photographer, despite his... tools for the market.

If this photo isn't an iconic image for the sport of women's bodybuilding, it should be.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/billdobpic1cbig.jpg
[info]noveldevice wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 05:24 am (UTC)
I, um, have no coherent response to that photo.

Except to point out that anyone who can look at this woman and say that female bodybuilders are grotesque clearly is no judge of women.

Hawt!!
[info]tedeisenstein wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 01:29 pm (UTC)
I'm no judge of women, then. I can see as how people find her attractive, but she's too muscular for me.

It's very much a to-each-his(her)-own thing.
[info]jauncourt wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 03:50 pm (UTC)
Well, that's different, though. You say "Not for me, but I can see the beauty there."

Lots of people say "EW! How can anyone find THAT attractive?!?!"

Vast gap in POV there.
[info]tedeisenstein wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 04:03 pm (UTC)
I have a degree in art history. There's nothing like sitting through dozens of classes during which the professor goes on and on, raving about art works that you think aren't good enough to throw out, to make you appreciate different opinions as to what beauty is....

:-)
[info]badger2305 wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 02:59 am (UTC)
"Remember, the act of picking up a barbell is one of the most subversive acts you as a woman can do."

QFT.

(...and Dina Al-Sabah is most impressive. :) )
[info]silk_noir wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2009 05:39 am (UTC)
Oh, dear--what does QFT stand for?
[info]samm_on wrote:
Jun. 16th, 2010 10:23 pm (UTC)
These women seem to have used steroids, otherwise I can't explain to myself the amount of muscles on their body even if they spend long days on training. Steroids are very popular, anyone can buy steroids online without worrying about having a prescription, obviously a lot of people use this method. Hopefully most of them will know where to stop.
( 38 comments — Leave a comment )

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